‘Kurdistan is where the fate of the Middle East will be determined’: An interview with Cemil Bayik

First published at Kurdistan Democratic Communities Union.

In the interview, Cemil Bayik, co-chair of the Kurdistan Democratic Communities Union (KCK) Executive Council, extensively discusses the current process regarding the solution of the Kurdish question. He emphasizes that while peoples' leader Abdullah Ocalan is developing concrete steps towards a democratic solution, no similar attitude of the Turkish AKP government can be seen. Bayik also addresses the connection between the Kurdish question and the Third World War raging in the region.

After a long period of isolation of peoples leader Abdullah Ocalan, recently two meetings took place with him. First the MP of the DEM Party, Omer Ocalan, and then the DEM Party delegation went to Imrali. During the talks, Abdullah Ocalan pointed out his readiness for the solution of the Kurdish question and the democratization of Turkey. After the visit to Imrali, the DEM Party delegation held meetings and discussions with the parties of the Turkish parliament, thereby creating hope in the Turkish society. How do you evaluate these talks and the agenda?

Even though the delegation went to Imrali, the heavy isolation against Rêber Apo1 still continues. He cannot fulfill his role under the conditions of this heavy isolation. If the Turkish state really wants to solve Turkey’s problems, and its most fundamental issue, the Kurdish question, first of all, it must set an end to the isolation. Rêber Apo’s conditions must change. It is neither moral, political, nor human to ask Rêber Apo to solve these problems while he is in isolation. He assesses the situation in the Middle East and its effects on Turkey and sees that both are facing great problems, and he wants to solve them. He is assuming a historic role for this, searching for a solution to the problems of the peoples of Turkey and the Middle East. Based on this he issued a declaration. In it, Rêber Apo has clearly formulated his views and perspectives, and he has made it very clear on which basis the problems can be solved.

This declaration, which is based on seven particular points, made the Turkish society breathe a sigh of relief. Because this determined the future of the peoples of Turkey. And that is why we call it a manifesto. Just as Rêber Apo has pointed out his historical role, the Turkish state should also express its thoughts. The state needs to express its ideas and perspectives. In the statement of the delegation that met with Rêber Apo, they highlighted that the position and approach of the Turkish state are still not clear and that this causes suspicion. Just as Rêber Apo did, the Turkish state must clearly express what its intentions are. They must explain what they aim to do and how they will take steps. Everyone is waiting for this. But the Turkish state’s failure to take steps creates suspicion among everyone. These doubts need to be removed.

At the center of Rêber Apo’s declaration lies democratization, the question of how Turkey can become a democratic country. Because as long as Turkey is not democratized, the Kurdish question and other issues cannot be solved. This is commonly known. The current developments in the Middle East are deepening the existing problems. Especially the Kurdish question is getting bigger by the moment. As long as there is no solution, more serious problems will arise.

There is an extensive war going on in Kurdistan right now. It started with Hamas, continued with Hezbollah, spread to Syria, and made the Baath regime collapse, and now it has reached Kurdistan. Kurdistan will be the ground where the fate of the future will be determined. That is why so many forces are fighting over Kurdistan. Whoever draws the Kurds to his side will get results. Those who do not take steps in this regard will face great problems and serious dangers. That is why Rêber Apo is not only pointing out the problems but also how they can and will be solved. In this way, he takes responsibility not only for the Kurdish people but for all the peoples of the Middle East and humanity.

Against this, the Turkish state must also fulfill its responsibilities. The Imrali delegation said that there are doubts regarding the intentions of the Turkish state, and if the situation continues like this, these doubts will increase. The solution to the problems in Turkey is democratization, but the Turkish state is not taking any steps for this. It does so because if Turkey democratizes, Kurds will benefit more than anyone else. Because they still aim to eliminate the Kurds. This is their mentality, and it is what prevents them from doing anything for democratization. Turkey has reached a critical situation where it can no longer continue as before. Democratization is now the fundamental issue for Turkey. If they don’t do this, they will get even more stuck, and they will take big blows.

This is where Rêber Apo comes into play — he wants Turkey to take steps. He does not want Turkey to be like the last period of the Ottoman Empire. Because what is happening right now in Turkey resembles the last period of the Ottoman Empire. This is a great danger for Turkey. Rêber Apo is fulfilling his historical duty, and the state needs to do the same.

Looking at it, one can see that the tactics and methods of special warfare prominently characterize the whole ongoing process. A lot is being discussed, and speculations and propaganda are being spread. After Abdullah Ocalan gave his message, saying that he has the power to solve the problem, has there been any contact between you and him, or between you and the Turkish state or any outstanding power?

Nobody has reached out to us and we have not received any message so far, neither from Rêber Apo nor from the state. We are following the discussions in the press, trying to understand them, but we have not received anything officially. The Turkish state is waging a much broader war against both our people and our movement. On a daily basis they issue statements saying that they have carried out military operations here, killed so many there, and arrested many more there — so what they basically do is admit that there is no change in the Turkish state. They speak about developing brotherhood with the Kurds, and they speak about the shared, deep-rooted history, but at the same time they never act like that in practice. If they really want to develop brotherhood, then they must take the rights of Kurds as a basis. Whatever rights the Turks have in Turkey, the Kurds should also have those rights. Right now we see that the Turks have all the rights, while the Kurds are being stripped of everything. The state is in practice developing all its plans based on the question of how to destroy and eliminate the Kurds. This has nothing to do with brotherhood; this is complete deception. If they really want to solve the problem and develop brotherhood and unity, they must give up their hostile politics towards the Kurds and change their mentality. Rêber Apo wants them to take the historic opportunity to change their mentality so that they can take steps to solve the Kurdish question. If they do not change their mentality, they will lose. Maybe there are some in Turkey who see this and want to put aside the mentality that denies the existence of the Kurds and wants to destroy them, but this mentality of the state has not changed. This is what is seen in practice.

Some people may think that a message or a letter from Rêber Apo has reached the PKK, but there is no such thing. And also there has been no change within the Turkish state so far. We follow the developments in the press like everyone else. The Turkish state continues its attacks; we continue our struggle, and we will continue until the end. If this mentality does not change, if Rêber Apo’s conditions do not change, if a commission is not established in the Parliament as Rêber Apo proposed, if the constitution is not amended, we will continue our struggle. Because the Turkish state is attacking us every day with all kinds of weapons. How could we simply stop under these circumstances? Of course our struggle continues.

The seven points in the declaration created hope in the Turkish public opinion. But the AKP government, Erdogan, his media, and some AKP officials are using ugly and provocative language. Where is this language taking Turkey, and what kind of situation does it create in society?

As I mentioned at the beginning, when Rêber Apo issued the declaration, the society in Turkey was able to breathe a sigh of relief. Rêber Apo spoke to the delegation that visited him and told them to meet all parties of the parliament and to get their opinions on the current developments. He said that he is practically and theoretically capable of solving this issue. So, based on this, the delegation met with the other parties of the parliament and approached the parties that had doubts positively and made their statements accordingly. They said that if the state and the AKP are really sincere and want to solve the Kurdish question, they are ready to help; there is no problem in this regard. This shows that there have been some changes in Turkish politics. It was not like this in the past; the dominant mentality in Turkish politics was not to accept the bare existence of the Kurdish people. But now it is clear from their statements that they also want this issue to be solved. This is important. A new politics is developing, and there are discussions on this. This is positive. But when we look at the AKP, it is different. After the delegation met with them, they said, “We had a chat.” In other words, they approached it in a non-serious way, as if they were mocking. We understand from this approach that the AKP has no aim of solving the Kurdish question or democratizing Turkey. If they had such a goal, they would not have used such language; they would have approached it seriously. All the other parties were more serious; they expressed their views and criticisms. But the AKP mockingly says, “We just had a chat.” Tayyip Erdogan and some of his AKP officials want to deepen the problems in Turkey, not solve them. That is what their statements and actions are based on. They want to create a perception in society.

They say about the PKK and Rêber Apo that there is no other way left: “They have to surrender. They have to bury their weapons, and if they don’t, we will bury them with them”. They don’t talk about anything other than death and killing. Would they use such language if they were aiming for a solution? Both AKP and Erdogan do this deliberately. It is a lie that the PKK has no other path; on the contrary, new paths have opened, bigger paths than before, and the PKK can now move and work in more and various ways than it has before. The role of the Kurds and the PKK is now much bigger than before. They should not fall into heedlessness. They are the ones who will be buried in the ground if they continue like this. The situation they are in shows this. The language used by AKP and Erdogan is the language of war. It is not the language of peace and brotherhood. It is not a language that will solve any problem. It is not like they are just making propaganda or that they are giving a message to their base. Basically, they want to eradicate the Kurdish question through violence, terror, and massacre. All their speeches are about killing. They don’t talk about anything else. This language does not serve a solution. The people of Turkey need to see this. Turkey’s intellectuals, artists, academics, and people who truly love Turkey must see this and stand against it. It is in everyone’s interest to solve the Kurdish question. That is why this language must not be used and why this mentality must end. A solution is in the interest of Turkey and even the AKP, but if they continue like this, they will lose a lot, and so will Turkey as a whole.

You mentioned that the Turkish state acts according to the language of war; currently they are attacking Rojava, North and East Syria, on a daily basis. They send all kinds of gangs and mercenaries against Rojava and want to push HTS to attack the Kurds. At the same time, their policy of forcibly appointing trustees to municipalities in northern Kurdistan and Turkey is being continued. Where will this situation lead?

They are using a language of insult. They are insulting Rêber Apo, the PKK, and the Kurdish people. They are aware that the Kurdish question will determine the fate of everyone, including their own. Rêber Apo wants to play a historic role, and they are trying to prevent this. That is why they are making so many such steps at the same time. In practice, they are conducting their trustee politics, arresting Kurds, punishing them, murdering them, continuing the war, and intervening in other parts of Kurdistan, and they are daily bombing Rojava. They are doing all this to break the hope and faith of the people and the fighters in Rêber Apo and to create doubt. They want to create the perception that Rêber Apo is weak and has no power and influence; therefore, the Turkish state does exactly the opposite of what Rêber Apo is striving for. By doing so, they want to prevent Rêber Apo from playing his historical role and prevent Kurds from making great gains.

Right now, they are waging a war against Rojava under the name of the ‘Syrian National Army’ (SNA). SNA is just a name; it has nothing to do with Syria. They brought all these gangs and mercenaries from Chechnya, Kyrgyzstan, Libya, and further alike countries. Among them, there are Turkish special forces, officers, and generals. These are running this war. They are fighting under the name of SNA to deceive everyone. The Turkish state is an expert in deception. The war being waged in Qereqozakh and Tishrin is not a war waged by organizations of Syria; it is the Turkish state itself. That is something that always needs to be underlined. Information reached us that some Turkish special forces were wounded and killed in that war. There are even officers among the wounded and dead. The Turkish state thinks that they are taking great steps in Syria, but this is also simply a great deception. Maybe they are propagandizing this, as if they have really put their weight in Syria, but this is not true. Turkey fell into a big trap. They made Turkey and Erdogan do what they wanted to do. They used Erdogan in the conflict with Hamas and in the Syrian issue. In this way they created problems between Turkey and the Arabs. Turkey did not succeed in Syria. Nor would anyone hand Syria over to them. It was other forces that brought HTS to power. A different plan was executed here. HTS did not come to power by its own power; some people brought it to power, and it was not Turkey. A new Syria is being built and it is based on protecting Israel and global capital. What does Israel represent? It represents global capital; it represents the capitalist system. Protecting Israel does not only mean protecting Israel; it also means protecting the system of capitalist modernity. The system did not destroy the Baath regime so that Erdogan could come and sit down, and Syria would be at the service of the Turkish state. This propaganda of the Turkish state is just to give morale to its base. This is not true; there is a very serious situation for Turkey.

AKP’s goal is to strengthen its base. It fell to the position of the second party in Turkey and now wants to get out of that position. It wants to strengthen its power once again, to strike a blow to the autonomous system in North and East Syria through the SNA, and to put its weight in Syria with HTS. It aims to drive both the HTS and the SNA against the Kurdish, Assyrian, Armenian, and Arab people. They are doing this so that there will be no democratic Syria and that instead the country will be completely at their service. The Turkish state carries out its activities on this basis, but this is just a dream; no one will accept such a thing; it is not possible. Everyone knows about the ‘Abraham Accords’; this alliance is developing in the Middle East. Maybe the role of the Turkish state is not completely over, but it does not have the same role as before. Everyone says that Iran has suffered a big blow. It is true, maybe some balances have been in favor of Turkey, but Turkey has also suffered a big blow. It is in NATO, and it has relations with the EU; on this basis, they were running their power in the Middle East. It was getting support from those powers, but now it has been left out of the new plans.

For example, there was a meeting in Italy about Syria, and they didn’t even invite Turkey. The meeting was all about what kind of Syria would be established, and they left Turkey out. That was a clear message to the Turkish state. At the moment, the Turkish state is trying to see what it can do to gain some economic opportunities in Syria. They want to eliminate the self-administration if possible and strengthen their position in order to stay in Syria. In order not to lose Syria completely, they are paying diplomatic visits to many countries, from all Arab countries to America and England. In this way, they want to gain weight in Syria. And now the war in the Middle East has reached Iraq, Kurdistan, Iran, and Turkey. Not to forget, there is also the Cyprus issue. One has to think about why, for example, they forcibly appointed a trustee to the Akdeniz municipality. That is also linked to the Cyprus issue; they want to take measures. They are working on this basis. They think they will get results, but this is not possible.

Representatives of the Turkish state, both the foreign ministry and Erdogan, as well as further Turkish officials, stated that they have set conditions regarding North and East Syria. What do you say; would it even be possible to implement what the Turkish state is demanding?

Turkey is waging psychological warfare. They are trying to create the perception that North and East Syria will be completely eliminated in a short period of time. They want everyone to surrender to this. If they find the opportunity, without a doubt they will occupy that region. They are conducting their diplomacy for this and want to remove obstacles in front of this goal. They are making threat after threat. Every day the Turkish media is saying, “We will invade either today or tomorrow.” They are creating such pressure on North and East Syria. On the other hand, they want to put HTS into action. And they want to remove NATO’s obstacles and convince the Arab states to follow them. It is doing everything it can to destroy what has been built up in North and East Syria.

One has to highlight that the position of North and East Syria is stronger than ever before. For the Druze, for the Alawites, for those who are against HTS, North and East Syria is an alternative, even for the coalition forces. Everyone who looks at HTS with suspicion can hold on to North and East Syria. That is why the position of North and East Syria is stronger than ever before. There is a great struggle going on there right now. Therefore, I want to take this opportunity to send my greetings and respect to the resistance fighters and the people of Rojava. The fighters and the people are standing together against the attacks of the Turkish state, and they are fighting heroically. The people are going to Tishrin, resisting there for days, risking everything, even death. They are putting up a very historic struggle. The Turkish state planned to go from Manbij and until Deir ez-Zor and even capture Damascus, but they hit a wall in Qereqozakh and Tishrin. They are no longer in a position to take a step. They are getting hit every day. They may adopt new tactics, but as long as the Turkish state continues like this, it will be dealt a major blow, and its plans for Syria will be completely frustrated. If their plans fail, Erdogan will not be able to stay in power. That is why they will want to develop new tactics. Our people and the fighters there must prepare accordingly. The Turkish state is having great difficulties going against this struggle. It is not possible for them to achieve anything, so they are waging psychological warfare. Because so far they have always achieved results with psychological and special warfare policies. They scared everyone and got results this way. Now they are using this tactic again, but they have realized that these tactics won’t work here. Therefore, they may develop new tactics, and our people and the fighters fighting there must be very careful.

In 2014, the Turkish state trained and armed ISIS and had them attack the Kurds. Today, evaluations indicate that the Turkish state aims to create a conflict between HTS and the Kurds in order for its forces to come to power in Syria. Is such a scenario possible?

What is the Turkish state putting forward? The propaganda is that the PKK should get out of there, that all the outsiders should leave, and that the SDF should disband and dissolve itself. They want HTS to join these conditions and have mobilized the SNA on this basis. But those in the SNA are not the Syrian people. Maybe there are a few among them, but mostly they come from different countries. Their salaries and needs are met by the Turkish state. While the people of Turkey live in hunger, the Turkish state does not give anything to the people, saying that it doesn’t have the means, but it gives everything to the SNA mercenaries. The peoples of Turkey need to discuss this. They should point out that they are paying taxes while experiencing financial difficulties. They should question the state why it uses the means for these gangs and mercenaries, why it cuts their sustenance and gives it to them. We see that Erdogan utilizes the fact that nobody publicly discusses this and questions the state. The Turkish state hides what it does. That’s why they point to other topics and say that PKK members and all foreigners should leave the country, while almost all of its SNA fighters are foreigners. There are even many foreigners in HTS. They even have specific battalions and made some non-Syrian commanders citizens. As for those who fought and gave their lives for Syria, they want to force them out.

There is also a serious attack on the project of ‘Democratic Nation’. Before the Syrian war started, Abdullah Ocalan stated that the Kurdish and Arab alliance would turn into a strategic alliance. Great steps were taken for this, and it took shape in North and East Syria. The Turkish state wants to deal a blow to the project of the ‘Democratic Nation’. How do you assess this danger, what is your call or warning? What attitude should the Kurdish people, the Arab, Assyrian, Armenian, and Circassian people, and all the components of North and East Syria take?

The system of democratic nation has developed in North and East Syria. The women’s movement has developed, and the peoples in North and East Syria are living this reality. It is not possible for the Turkish state to achieve its goal to destroy this system, but they cannot realize this because the peoples of North and East Syria will not allow this. And they express this clearly. They protect their values and revolutionary achievements. The issue there is not only the issue of the Kurds or Kurdish gains; the issue concerns all of North and East Syria. It is about all the peoples living there, their democratic nation, and the gains the peoples have achieved. The Turkish state is consciously putting the Kurds and their gains forward. They are doing this to make other peoples feel excluded. I guess everyone is aware of these games of the Turkish state. The Turkish state wants to break the peoples against each other and make them enemies. It aims to create a war between them. They are conducting such dirty politics. They want to realize their neo-Ottoman dreams by causing a war between the peoples and isolating the Kurds. But the Kurds and the other peoples of the region are aware of this. That is why the Turkish state remains unsuccessful with its policy.

The Third World War is raging in the Middle East, and the center of this war is Kurdistan. In the First World War, the Sykes-Picot Treaty was signed, as a result of which Kurdistan was divided into four parts and the Middle East was shattered. Today, especially after the recent developments in Syria, the Sykes-Picot Treaty is no longer valid. There was the war against Hamas in Palestine, then the Hezbollah war in Lebanon, and finally the collapse of the Baath regime in Syria. You also mentioned the Abraham Accords. At the moment it seems that the war is heading over Iraq towards Iran. And both the forces of capitalist modernity and regional powers such as the Turkish state are deeply involved in this. How do you assess the situation of both Iran and Iraq?

With the First World War, the Middle East was reorganized, Kurdistan was divided into pieces, and the Arabs were torn into pieces. A new world system had been established. The forces that chose the powers in the Middle East at that time are now eliminating them one by one. They are the ones who established it in the past, and they are the ones who are abolishing it today. Until the Third World War, these powers in the Middle East were still serving the capitalist powers to a certain extent, but they have now outlived themselves. Now they are obstacles both for capitalist modernity and for the peoples of the Middle East. That is why they are removing the regimes. The war in the Middle East is between the capitalist modernity system and the status quo nation states. In this war, the status quo system of the nation state is being liquidated. The system of capitalist modernity is gradually advancing in the Middle East. The destruction of Syria means the destruction of the Middle East. The system established in the First World War is collapsing. This is why a fundamental change is taking place in the Middle East today.

The destruction of Syria prepares the grounds for the destruction of other states. Because Syria was taken as a basis when the Middle East was shaped in the first place. First the British entered Syria, then an alliance was made with France, which took Britain’s place. At that time, the borders between Arab states were not yet clear. The States had not been established yet. They started with Syria, then Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq were established. Syria is at the foundation of these states. Syria was the basis of the balance in the Middle East. That’s why they said there would be no peace without Syria. Because the disintegration and shaping were done through it. With the collapse of Syria, the order they established is also collapsing. The issue is not only the fall of the Baath regime. This is where Kurdistan’s role comes to the fore. It determines the fate of everyone. There are some centers of this war, and they focus on Kurdistan. Because they see that whoever takes Kurdistan will shape the Middle East. And since the war is becoming a war for Kurdistan, it has a great impact on Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. It creates a great fear in both Iran and Turkey.

They want to do in Iraq what they have done in Syria. There is such information circulating. Just as they gave Turkey a role in Syria, they want to do the same in Iraq. In this way, they want to utilize Turkey for their purposes. Erdogan and the AKP constantly say that they are “local and national,” but all of their speeches are lies. They are neither national nor local. If they continue like this, they will sacrifice Turkey like the Ottoman Empire was sacrificed. Rêber Apo wants to develop democratization in Turkey so that Turkey does not become a scourge for the peoples. He strives for the liberation of the peoples of the region from the occupation of the Turkish state. And this can only be achieved through democratization. When Turkey democratizes, the peoples of the region will also breathe a sigh of relief. Because right now the Turkish state is occupying Iraq, Syria, Turkey democratizes, the peoples of the region will also breathe a sigh of relief. and Libya. This can only be stopped through democratization. That is why Rêber Apo’s work is important.

There is a possibility that Iraq will be disintegrated. There are already some steps that have been taken in this regard. The Iraqi state is already defeated. Maybe some steps are taken in the name of the state, but one cannot say that Iraq is still a complete and functioning state. It cannot handle a new war, especially a war like the one in Syria. This would be the disintegration of Iraq. Turkey has relations with many forces in the country and is organizing some of them. Iraq made an alliance with Turkey, and Iraq just now has realized the true situation it is in. It is now realizing what Turkey did in Syria, how it hit everyone, especially Iran and Russia. I think Iraq has drawn a conclusion for itself. If it hasn’t drawn a conclusion yet, it will die by its own hand.

You are talking about the agreement that was made between the Sudani government and the Turkish government, right?

Yes, this agreement is very dangerous for Iraq, because they put everything at the service of the Turkish state. Turkey established many military bases on Iraqi soil, took many steps, strengthened its intelligence work, and deepened its works with Turkmen groups and ISIS through this agreement. That is how they utilize their signed agreement.

Iran has suffered one blow after another in the recent period. Iran is said to be the biggest loser of the Syrian war. Are Iran’s hands really tied right now? Is it unable to do anything? Or is this just a deception?

Of course Iran has been seriously hit, but no matter how much it is hit, it will want to defend itself. Iraq is now most important for Iran. After Hamas and Hezbollah were hit and the Baath regime collapsed, now the situation in Iraq came to the agenda. Iran will not easily withdraw its hand from Iraq, but America, Britain, and Israel also want to continue their moves in the Middle East, and Turkey also wants to benefit from this. Just as they wanted to benefit from what happened in Syria, they want to benefit from Iraq. Most probably the war in Iraq will expand. It is hard to tell what the outcome will be, but the role of nation states is over. Nation states are no longer strong enough to stand against global capital monopolies. Either they will compromise or they will dissolve. This also accounts for Iran and Turkey.

When Rêber Apo was interviewed by Mehmet Ali Birand years ago, he said, “I want to find an interlocutor to solve the Kurdish question on political and democratic grounds.” Any step Rêber Apo has taken was always on this basis, and he insisted on this. For example, he established a dialog with Turgut Ozal and declared many uniliteral ceasefires. Turgut Ozal also wanted to take some steps to solve the Kurdish question through political and democratic means. That is why Turgut Ozal was murdered. Again afterwards, Rêber Apo insisted on this path, and the Dolmabahce Consensus was developed. This agreement was based on the democratization of Turkey. Erdogan saw that the process developed by Rêber Apo had reached a serious stage, and he had two options; either take steps to solve the problem on political and democratic grounds or oppose it. But there was no change in Erdogan’s mentality. He wanted to eliminate the Kurds. So he overturned the table. He prevented the Kurdish question from being solved on a political and democratic basis. One needs to discuss these things. Why was the table overturned? Did Rêber Apo ask for too much at Dolmabahce? No, he made reasonable demands, and all of them were for the democratization of Turkey. So why did Erdoğan overturn the table? Why did he deepen the war? Why did he put the so-called ‘collapse plan’ into action? What was the reason? These are the questions that need to be discussed.

As I mentioned, Rêber Apo told Mehmet Ali Birand that he wanted to find an interlocutor, that he wanted to solve the issue; in this sense he declared many unilateral ceasefires and developed dialogue. He wanted to set an end to the move that was developed on August 15th, 1984; he wanted the weapons to be silenced and the Kurdish question to be solved on political and legal grounds. In his last message, Rêber Apo said, “Practically and theoretically, I have the power to solve the issue,” and he made clear that the state must fulfill its role and duty. Rêber Apo has been taking this line as a basis. He may be saying what he is saying now more straightforwardly, but it is the same thing he was saying in the past. There is nothing new.

Now again, Rêber Apo has taken a step forward, and we will see what kind of step the Turkish state, especially the AKP, will take. Everyone is waiting for this. They have not taken any step so far. Erdogan has not come to hold a meeting. Those who met with the delegation made statements saying that they “just had a chat.” Erdogan’s discourse is not about a solution; all his statements are about war, killing, and threats. It is not based on the interests of Turkey and the peoples of Turkey. Rêber Apo is undertaking a historic task by insisting on a solution, and we stand by him. All democrats, socialists, and those who want the Kurdish question and the problems in Turkey to be solved, those who love Turkey should work for a solution. They should put aside their doubts. If they work for the solution of the problem, for the democratization of Turkey, then all doubts will disappear. The democratization of Turkey serves everyone; everyone benefits from it. Therefore, everyone must fulfill their historical duty on this basis.

You mentioned Erdogan’s approach to this initiative taken by Abdullah Ocalan. A few days ago, Devlet Bahceli said in his party’s group meeting that there was a threat: “Either we live in these lands as brothers or we will be thrown out of Anatolia.”. But looking at the situation, if Abdullah Ocalan is taken lightly, if the honor of the Kurdish people is played with, and if their chauvinist rhetoric against the PKK continues, what kind of result will emerge? Do the Kurds have other options?

As I pointed out before, the position of both the Kurds and the PKK is now much stronger than ever before. The roads that had been closed to the PKK in the past are now open. The Turkish state should not miscalculate. It should not think that the PKK is in a constricted position, that through pressure and persecution it could force the Kurds to accept everything they want. That would be their death. There are much greater opportunities for both the Kurds and the PKK than before. There are many forces that can and want to establish relations with the PKK. They even want to give the PKK opportunities that they did not give before. If the Turkish state does not intend to participate in the solution of the Kurdish question, the PKK has strong alternatives. The PKK’s hands are not tied. On the contrary, everyone is making calculations over the Kurds and the PKK. The Turkish state has to think and act responsibly. Rêber Apo thinks of all peoples and wants to fulfill his duty for humanity. He wants to do this with Turkey. But if Turkey does not take steps in this regard, there are many alternatives, but they wouldn’t turn out well for Turkey. We do not want Turkey to fall into such a situation.

Rêber Apo wants to solve the issue with Turkey. Otherwise, there are many other circles and forces, and many of them want to establish relations; they want to take the Kurds and the PKK to their side, and on this basis they want to conduct politics in the Middle East. I would like to issue a warning to the Turkish state; they should not fall into an error of judgment. If Bahceli says what he says, it is because he sees some realities. Like I said, what he is saying is reminiscent of the last period of the Ottoman Empire. Mustafa Kemal saw the danger in front of Turkey. If they had not formed an alliance with the Kurds, they would not be able to get out of this danger, and they would lose completely. That’s why he formed an alliance with the Kurds. Like this, they were able to get rid of the danger and survive. The conjuncture that existed at that time also allowed this. This is how he got results and saved Turkey from danger. Bahceli realized that now again great danger is approaching Turkey. If they do not get the help of the Kurds, they will lose in a very big way. Bahceli’s concern is Turkey and the Turks. He is calculating how he can keep them alive. He knows that he can do this by forming an alliance with the Kurds. He has no other option. It is Bahceli who is fighting us more than anyone else. If he says today that we urgently need to form an alliance with the Kurds, he says this because he sees that the danger is very close. That’s why he says that nothing can be solved or won with war; that peace wins. That is correct. Some people in Turkey say that if there are discussions about peace, it means that there is war; that’s why the issue of peace itself is being discussed. This is true; why talk about peace where there is no war? Now they admit some things. I don’t know whether they accept them willingly or whether they accept them out of necessity, but our people should know that the position of the Kurds, the PKK, and Rêber Apo now is much stronger than ever before.

We have much greater opportunities than before. But no one should be complacent here. This is a must. No one must be influenced by their psychological special warfare. All the propaganda in the Turkish media is meant to deceive our people and confuse everyone. Our people should not listen to them. They should listen to Rêber Apo and the movement. They should believe in themselves, Rêber Apo, and the movement and act on this basis. I have faith in the Kurdish people. The Kurdish people are an organized and political people. They understand and distinguish many things. The Turkish state cannot influence the Kurdish people with such psychological and special warfare methods. Of course, our people still need to be careful in this regard. They should increase their struggle and develop the global campaign that was deployed for the physical freedom of Rêber Apo more strongly and everywhere. Maybe we will have some difficulties, but in the end we will win big, and it will be a win for humanity.

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  Referring to Abdullah Ocalan.