'If we've come so far, this can't go wrong' -- Interview with CUP deputy in Catalan parliament

Vilaweb: “This will end well." How can you convince people that's true?

Baños: We have a majority of seats for independence, with 48% of votes and 11% of people who want to break with the status quo. And with all of that the next day we get nervous! A pure sample of Catalonia tribunera[ii]! We started this some years ago in Arenys de Munt[iii]. There was nothing, a charge by the prosecutor's office, a couple of Falangists[iv]... And now there are 48% of us in favour of the country's independence. Votes counted! These years have shown us that this is an historic process, which can't be aborted or stopped by trivia. It's a process that's bigger than Artur Mas, bigger than me and bigger than the parties involved. It demands a response about a lot more than independence: let's talk about sovereignty, about social rights, about how to structure states and societies. These processes begin in a certain way but definitely won't end in nonsense. This will be fine. This can't go wrong.

A perspective that instils optimism. But now you have to think about how to do it. What to do first?

We have to start by talking to everyone, not just Together for Yes and not just about the investiture of Mas. I mean trade unions, social movements, organisations, parties. We are now in a second phase. These first five years have been those of seeking out the democratic mandate. And now we finally have it. Now we do politics, now we have to build the republic. We have to talk about how we build structures of state, how we relate to each other, what pace we give the process, what strength can be got from disobeying the law--of Spain, of the Troika[v] and of austerity.

You also insist on an emergency social program...

Yes, because can we start a political process with four hundred thousand citizens left out? Not left out of the political process, but left out of society itself, in a situation of extreme poverty. We want to take the time to have a more wide-ranging, more solid reflection before the political calendar obliges us to form a parliament and vote for a government. This is not just about an arithmetic sum of seats, but about how to make the process unstoppable and how we have to begin to build a new country, given that we have the democratic mandate.

How will disobedience be exercised?

There has to be declaration in parliament that the process is unstoppable, and at the same time the things that tie us to the Spanish state have to be disobeyed, such as the sentences of the Constitutional Court and decisions that put on hold any decision of the Catalan parliament. If the Catalan parliament is sovereign it can't accept interference from any court that has nothing to do with our sovereignty. Examples are the Wert law[vi] and the decree on energy poverty.[vii]

The CUP wouldn't enter a coalition government in any circumstances?

No. We don't want to get into government because our political culture is not that of institutional politics, even less that of government. We are municipalists and even though we take part in parliament, that politics isn't ours and we're not comfortable with it. Nor do we want our message and our involvement in the process to be tied to a sharing of ministries. We don't want to get into that game. We don't want anything for ourselves, no share in power. We do want, however, to support a government that carries out an emergency people's social program, institutional disobedience and the building of republican state structures. And so that it's clear that our message is straight, we say from the outset that we won't be getting into the power-sharing game.

Even now, at an exceptional moment?

It's just as valid to support the government from outside as from within. We already did that during the last parliamentary term, with the laws on popular consultations and against homophobia, which we supported. But for us to enter the government there would have be a situation so absolutely exceptional and so unusual that right now I can't imagine it.

What are your bottom-line preconditions for supporting the inauguration of the new government?

First, that the government that's set up contains not one corrupt person nor anyone who has taken part in the cuts policies of recent years. If we have to start a Catalan state which sets up these state structures, we can't apply previous policy, which was passive in the face of the pressures of  Madrid and the business lobbies. And then we want to implement the emergency social program, which is the first guideline we lay down.

An emergency social program to do what?

To stop evictions and stop the privatisation processes and the outsourcing of basic health and education services. And, if possible, to begin to reverse them. And zero corruption. I know that this can't be done in a day, but what we do ask for is a very serious commitment to “lift the lid” before starting.  A new phase in the construction of the republican state is beginning, and there's no sense doing it with all the old cronyism and corruption.   And the emergency plan includes measures to guarantee citizens three meals a day. That's just a common sense requirement.

[Outgoing CUP MP] Quim Arrufat spoke yesterday of an extreme situation which would force the CUP  to decide between making Mas president and derailing the process. What do you think of the statements he made?

We are here to be the spring, the elastic, that makes the process go faster and not get derailed. We are the pro-independence left and we fought for decades to reach this point. It is obvious, when 48% of Catalans are  pro-independence and we have a pro-independence majority in government and the parliament, that we will not  hamstring everything and stop it.

We will never do that. That's why I said that this will turn out fine. It will turn out fine because we will give it our all , because we will do whatever is needed for it to turn out well, so that the construction of the republican state advances in an open way, not restricted to a single name or single party.

I understand, from what you say, that you will avoid by whatever means necessary the calling of early elections in March.

The only person who has spoken about early elections is [Citizens' leader] Inés Arrimadas.

But if there were no agreement over issue of the premiers, there would have to be elections.

But who exactly said that there would inevitably have to be new elections? Citizens. If this option is good for Citizens then it is very bad for us. For us there is still a lot of time to negotiate many things, not just the name of the president: the emergency social program, the forms of disobedience, the self-defense of this government and the Catalan institutions against the attacks from Spain. The charging of Mas[viii] is the beginning of a series of very harsh attacks that all Catalan institutions will experience. The only person who finds the scenario of early elections enticing is Inés Arrimadas. And for the same reason they find it good for them, we find it very dangerous.

How would the proposal for a “collective presidency” made by [CUP MP] Anna Gabriel work?[ix]

In the time left for negotiation you will hear our ideas, because we work in a spirit of positive proposals. Including proposals that will definitely involve sacrifices on our part. In negotiations, as over the November 9 consultation and the laws that have been passed with our support, we did that. From us you will only hear proposals, and not complaints. Both what Quim Arrufat said and what Anna Gabriel said go in this direction, to start negotiating and to start to construct something apparently contradictory to our position, to offer solutions.

So you're not saying no to Mas, but let's negotiate what role he should have?

You're getting ahead of yourself a bit there...

But the collective presidency proposal means that, doesn't it? Explain it a little more. Anna Gabriel speaks of three or four people and vindicates the role of women. Could the formula be, for example, Mas, [former Omnium Cultural president] Muriel Casals and a couple of other people, from the CUP or independents?

We're under a  lot of pressure at the moment. We are told that it can't be that the process is  derailed by the CUP. I say: it can't be that the process gets stopped by a single person, no matter how great an asset. For the million and a half people who voted Together For Yes Mas is an asset, he is the leader. But not for us. That's a respectable position.

We don't want Mas's head on a platter, like the reactionary Madrid cavern[x] does. We don't want to sacrifice any asset. And for many people, Mas and [ERC leader] Junqueras are assets. For a lot of people the CUP is an asset. And all this has to be kept in mind. Everyone is needed, but no-one is indispensable. We propose, for example, a neutral, consensus, non-political presidency. You could also have a rotating presidency, done in a shared way. I insist: this can be done  to create a  sense of strength against the attacks of the Spanish state, which is indicting and prosecuting president Mas; a collective defense can be carried out. We want to open up the game and the range of possibilities. A clash between the figure of Artur Mas and the CUP doesn't allow for that. But we don't want to have a clash with Mas. We don't like him as president and we won't vote for him as president, but this is not a clash between Mas and CUP. We all have to get involved, in an open way and at many levels.

What about the Renzi option of which [Vilaweb] editor Vicent Partal spoke? That is, that Mas has a more symbolic presidency, with specific responsibilities, but that there is a chief minister or prime minister to manage the government on a day-to-day basis?

Okay, let's look at it. Among the very many proposals that will emerge, we can look at. And let Mr. Mas also look at it if he is interested. We will find the way. We''ll have to speak about these things, I don't deny it. But there are more things to talk about: the attack of the Spanish state  and the indictment of leading figures for having put out ballot boxes; disobedience; international recognition...

You were talking about building an institutional defense against the attacks that will come from the Spanish state. What do you mean?

An attack like indicting Mas, education minister Irene] Rigau and [former vice-president Joana] Ortega deserves to meet a protective shield and a defense from the Catalan institutions. These kind of attacks will keep coming. Now there are three defendants, but they will begin to prosecute middle-level public servants and will go on undermining aspects of the Catalan administration so that it will collapse. So let's get focussed. The institutions we have, which are inheritors of the regional government, are the seeds of the Catalan republican institutions. What we have now is formally a regional government, but we have to think that it is already not that. We have to protect it so these institutions acquire the character that can build the republic.

That is why you should all reach an agreement. And also appeal to the people of Catalonia Yes We Can.

Yes, everyone.
 
But they don't agree with this process of building the Catalan Republic. How will you get them on board?

Twenty years ago only 15% were for independence. The people who are still not pro-independence or working actively for the republic are working for a constituent process. All the people of Catalonia Yes We Can  want a constituent process, and that means making a unilateral constitution for Catalonia. They are just one step away from us. But there are things,  like the Convergence[xi] leadership of the process, which cause them distrust.  But if twenty years ago you had asked me how Castilian-speaking people would come to pro-independence positions it would have seemed impossible to answer. And now is a reality. Well it is infinitely easier now for the people of Catalonia Yes We Can to join when the process isbeginning to work and they see that it makes sense. Especially when they also see that the Spanish state will not make any offer and there will be no possibility of referendum. Those people who want to change the status quo will say “yes, that's true”.

You say the a Universal Declaration of Independence (UDI) cannot be done now, because there has not been a 50% or more vote for independence. But a validation of the process by plebiscite will have to be done at some point?

Yes, of course.

How? As a referendum on independence?

Or on the constitution. For us September 27  was plebiscitary and constituent. We just missed out on getting the democratic mandate for a UDI. This prevents us from doing the quickest things or with absolute support in the eyes of the international community. However, 48% for Yes and the parliamentary majority allows us to start the political process. Later, to legitimise the Catalan constitution a referendum could be held.

The period of eighteen months before  the proclamation of independence, as proposed by Together For Yes, do you think that plausible?

For some things it seems too long. And for others it is perhaps too short. The construction of a republic is the  work of a lifetime. There are some things, such as disobeying Spanish laws and rulings, that could have done from day one.

But there are more complex things such as the creation of the Catalan treasury....

That is why there are things for which eighteen months will maybe be too short. We won't be imposing deadlines.